Avengers: Endgame [SPOILERS]

[MT 917]

Talk about the movie all you want. All posts after this will contain spoilers. You have been warned.

[Deimos 100]

Ok. So, they SAID they cut all the branches off and reverted to one timeline but that's impossible. I think we'll see the effect of this through Phase 4 and on. 

 

- Loki escaped custody and took the Tesseract with him. He never made it back to Asgard. This alters the events of Dark World and forward. It also means that Thanos is coming for him. He stole the Tesseract in 2012 and Thanks didn't go to the future till 2014, so Thanos is alive in this timeline. 

 

Something with this will tie into the Disney+ Loki series, guaranteed.

 

- Captain America going back to live out his life completely changes everything. He gets with Peggy, which means she never married her other husband and this will wipe Sharon out of existence in this timeline. Also, there are two Caps in this timeline now. Present day Cap and Frozen Cap. So, what happens when 2012 hits and Cap is unfrozen? What happens when he goes to look for Peggy only to find out he's already married to her?

 

Also, Peggy Carter is a founder of SHIELD. Did that happen? If it did, which I'm sure it did, I don't see her and Steve doing nothing for 70 years but dancing. I bet anything we see Chris Evans return at some point and we get a movie or a show in this timeline. You'd have Cap, Carter, Hank Pym, Janet Van Dyne and Howard Stark all around. 

 

- There is still a 5 year gap unaccounted for between the snap and undoing the snap. We're gonna need a lot of that filled in at some point since the MCU didn't reset to 2018, it's still 2023 in the MCU. What happened in those 5 years that will play into Phase 4? I bet anything this will also play into Phase and on. It's gonna be how we see Black Widow again, I'm sure.

 

- Since 2014 Thanos was killed, he doesn't exist in that timeline so the snap never happens in that timeline ultimately. Also, since Nebula and Gamora won't be going after Quill to get the Power Stone, the events of both Guardians movies don't happen. So, what did happen in this timeline? 

 

I assume the events on Earth play out exactly the same up until Bruce was supposed to crash into Strange's house. Asgard is probably still destroyed but their ship never gets attacked so Loki and Heimdall are still alive. 

 

 

 

Could Black Widow be brought over from the universe that wasn't snapped? What else will happen now that they have a way to time travel and fuck shit up more?

 

My guess is because of this mess it's going to bring in Kang the Conquerer to deal with all these realities that have splintered off and he's going to be trying to reduce everything down to one time line again. We could see a Phase 4/5/6 that deals with various universes that will intersect at various points as Kang bounces around and it still culminate in all the universes coming together to fight Kang which would result in his defeat but him also accomplishing his goal and only one universe remains at the end with a hodge podge of characters from each universe surviving. This would give birth to yet another new beginning of the MCU in 2028. ?

[MT 917]

I always figured with the time travel stuff, just them going back in time sends everything from that point on into a different direction. Maybe not major changes, but definite small changes here and there. So when they went back to 2012, there's now a timeline where Loki escaped, but the original 2012 where he didn't escape still exists as well. The whole butterfly effect, basically. That seemed the most logical to me when it comes to time travel in general. I do like the thought of Kang coming around and making things "right" again, as it were, though.

 

The only real hole in all of that (not the Kang stuff) is the old Cap re-appearing in the "regular" MCU timeline. 

[Deimos 100]

I think he brought himself back when he was ready to and went there to meet them when it was time. The machine failed to bring him back because he was already back.

[MT 917]

Makes sense.

[Downshift 54]

Thor did absolutely nothing through both Infinity War movies. So much potential wasted after Ragnarok, what the fuck.

 

- Fails to protect Loki and the Asgardians from Thanos; half of his race gets killed the conventional way

- Spends all of Infinity War sulking and forging Stormbreaker

- Then uses Stormbreaker to fail stopping Thanos and watch him snap away existence right in front of him

- Gets drunk and fat for 5 years

- Doesn't lead the Asgardians new home on Earth, when they need a leader more than ever before

- Goes back in time with Rocket to get the Reality Stone, but bitches out and runs to mommy instead while Rocket does literally all the work alone

- Steals Mjolnir from himself at a critical point in that timeline while the Dark Elves are invading

- Uses both Mjolnir and Stormbreaker to get his ass kicked by Thanos

- Uses Stormbreaker to bat Mjolnir into Iron Man and knock him out of the fight

 

Honestly, Thor should have been the one to wear the Guantlet and undo The Snap, because he was the one that failed to stop Thanos in Wakanda and just watched Thanos snap right in front of his face. Ever since halfway through Ragnarok this guy needed a win and never got it.

 

[Deimos 100]

He was pretending he was ok for a long time after losing his mom, dad, Mjolnir, his eye, his home, his best friend and his brother. He obviously wasn't. He held onto hope that he could defeat Thanos but failed at that too. He still held onto hope that he could undo it all at the start of the movie and he still failed but he got an unsatisfying kill of Thanos. 

 

He broke. His spirit was gone.

 

Then he talked to his mom and got the advice he really needed to hear and he started to rebound. Now he's on a new path of self discovery with the Guardians. 

 

I really liked building him up to this happy go lucky character then breaking him down only to rebuild him. 

[MT 917]

7 hours ago, Downshift said:

- Steals Mjolnir from himself at a critical point in that timeline while the Dark Elves are invading

Cap did go and put Mjolnir back right after it was taken, same as with the Infinity Stones, so that's not really a big deal.

[Anelle 792]

*pounds fists on desk* FAT THOR FAT THOR FAT THOR FAT THOR

[Downshift 54]

5 hours ago, MT said:

Cap did go and put Mjolnir back right after it was taken, same as with the Infinity Stones, so that's not really a big deal.

Ah OK. I thought he just took it because it was his new weapon now.

[Anelle 792]

[Mera'din 307]

God that movie was fantastic. Really good cap to this whole thing. That final fight felt really good overall.

 

I don't know if they will focus too much on any alternate realities that may have formed off of this unless they DO go with the Kang thing and even then they won't be a focus. I also don't see them trying to find ways to feature people that are gone since the point kind of seemed like it was to get rid of them so they wouldn't be in movies going forward. Things can change obviously and maybe some of them will want to do a cameo here and there but I don't expect anything big.

 

I think we will see some focus on the 5 year gap with the next phase they do though. I read an article at some point in the past month that mentioned that some of the next movies will be set "in the past" which could easily just mean that. Though it could also mean that you're completely right so who knows. I just think a heavy alternate reality theme might push it a bit for a lot of people in terms of movies. People like us would eat it up, but I know people that already have a hard time following all of this. Push any harder and they might finally break it.

 

Maybe they'll use the shows they're doing to put some focus on this stuff? With Loki being a feature for one it seems possible. 

Mostly I just feel like too heavy of a focus on the alternate timeline stuff will be a too much for a lot of people, but if anyone can pull it off they can I guess. XD

 

One thing I really liked about this movie is we got a bunch of little (or big) comic references that were really nice (thought they're usually pretty good about these). Hawkeye's daughter in training. Wonder if they'll use her for a Kate Bishop stand-in for the MCU?, Clint going full Ultimate universe Hawkeye, "Hail Hydra"  , etc.

[MT 917]

Was reading reddit topics about the movie earlier and there's one thing that didn't really occur to me at the time. It was so incredibly good to finally hear "Avengers assemble!" in the MCU, after having not heard it this entire time, and having it teased in Age of Ultron. It made the phrase that much more meaningful in this movie. I think that may have been the moment I loved the most in the movie, with Cap weilding Mjolnir a close second, and of course the "on your left" moment right behind it.

 

Also, Peter Parker's return was the one that got the most cheers both times I saw it. Guess people really love that Spider-Man.

[Deimos 100]

I think the Disney+ series will focus on the alternate timelines, it could also be why the Netflix shows were axed. 

 

Loki will be in the 2012--> alternate reality

WandaVision is rumored to be set during the 1950s

Cap is in the 70s with Carter, Hank Pym, Janet Van Dyne, Howard Stark

Another reality exists where the snap never happened, which means characters like Black Widow, Vision, Loki, Heimdall, Gamora, Iron Man are all still alive unless something else just as bad happened in their place.

 

We have at least 4 big deal alternate realities and they are major plot holes if they aren't addressed correctly. I don't think leaving these wide open questions are an accident or plot holes. I think it's all intentional. Think how a TV Show ends a season by fixing one problem but unknowingly creating a new and worse problem. I think that's what we're about to see and I'll be shocked if it's not heavily dealt with moving forward. 

 

Those 4 time lines + the "normal" one with the 5 year gap will give us 5 realities that we know of. It will also be interesting to see what they do with the time machine going forward. What else they can/will/might do with time. For all we know, they pulled Captain America back into the fight down the road with a promise to return him back to his "life" after they didn't need him. They can travel back and grab information from Tony and request his help. They can go back and pull Black Widow out before she dies and bring her to the current timeline, creating another split timeline. 

 

They have introduced time travel for reals and they need to address it and get rid of it, it's going to be the next big problem. It has to be or things can't become streamline again. If they ignore it, it will lessen Endgame because of the glaring plot holes and out of character choices (cap doing nothing while hydra takes over shield). I think I might be really bummed out of they don't resolve the time travel stuff, fix it and vow never to use it again.

 

The next "big" event will probably be Ultimatum. 

[MT 917]

Maybe with Cap being in the past, now the original comic Avengers can be the new team.

[webhead 519]

So from the conversation they had, my understand is that the main MCU timeline isn't changed by what they've done.  They were talking about that before they started traveling.  The only thing I don't understand then is how Cap got back.  I had assumed he just lived through time but he should have been living in the alternate reality.

 

Also on that front if it is all connected, they never show Peggy's husband.  What if it was always Cap and she just doesn't tell him.

 

God I fucking loved this movie though.  I think I'm going to do something I almost never do and see this again in theaters.  I need to see it again.

[MT 917]

14 minutes ago, webhead said:

The only thing I don't understand then is how Cap got back.  I had assumed he just lived through time but he should have been living in the alternate reality.

I thought maybe he came back to the "regular" time before the others set up the time platform in the park and just sat there on the bench. 

[Mera'din 307]

Speaking of Peggy and Cap, wasn't Sharon her niece (or something to that effect) so that wouldn't effect things with her.

 

Also, alternate realities aren't a plot hole. They're just... alternate realities. Stuff they did split the timeline off. That doesn't mean anything for the primary timeline. It just gives them more tools to work with if they choose to use them.

 

The only thing that really needs an explanation that I can think of in terms of the primary continuity is how does Thanos and Co. coming from the past and getting vaporized there not fuck things up royally? That's a shitload of "important" people that just disappeared out of their timeline (Thanos, Gamora, Nebula, the Black Order) and weren't put back. Unless Tony's use of the Gauntlet took care of that somehow and we just don't know.

 

I don't think Cap going back necessarily affect the main timeline. As web said, they never show Peggy's husband or talk about him. Even at her deathbed, the pictures by her are her and her children so (at this point at least), I think the intention is that it was him all along.

[webhead 519]

52 minutes ago, Mera'din said:

The only thing that really needs an explanation that I can think of in terms of the primary continuity is how does Thanos and Co. coming from the past and getting vaporized there not fuck things up royally? That's a shitload of "important???????" people that just disappeared out of their timeline (Thanos, Gamora?, Nebula, the Black Order) and weren't put back. Unless Tony's use of the Gauntlet took care of that somehow and we just don't? know.?

 

Is that an alternate reality now?  A lot of this is really confusing probably for a reason (so they can capitalize on it how they chose later).  Scarlett Witch and vision seems to be in the 50s for instance.  Lot of weird possibilities.  I really don't know what to think 

 

Also how is Peter back at school with the same kids?  Did everyone he knows get snapped?  Obviously that will be explained in the new movie but I'm a bit confusing.

[Downshift 54]

19 hours ago, Deimos said:

- Captain America going back to live out his life completely changes everything. He gets with Peggy, which means she never married her other husband and this will wipe Sharon out of existence in this timeline. Also, there are two Caps in this timeline now. Present day Cap and Frozen Cap. So, what happens when 2012 hits and Cap is unfrozen? What happens when he goes to look for Peggy only to find out he's already married to her?

 

Also, Peggy Carter is a founder of SHIELD. Did that happen? If it did, which I'm sure it did, I don't see her and Steve doing nothing for 70 years but dancing. I bet anything we see Chris Evans return at some point and we get a movie or a show in this timeline. You'd have Cap, Carter, Hank Pym, Janet Van Dyne and Howard Stark all around.

That Cap ending didn't make sense to me at all. Did he just go against his nature and sit by during all the events since WWII that he knew would happen? Did he leave Bucky in Hydra custody for those 70 years and let him be tortured and kill the Starks?

I mean, he had to have, because he remained in that same timeline since he appeared back in it on that bench, so nothing he did caused a butterfly effect apparently.

Also, I thought Sharon was Peggy's niece.

[MT 917]

1 hour ago, webhead said:

Also how is Peter back at school with the same kids?  Did everyone he knows get snapped?  Obviously that will be explained in the new movie but I'm a bit confusing.

From what I heard, Ned and MJ got snapped.

[webhead 519]

And Flash and all the other kids he knows in the Far From Home trailer?

[MT 917]

16 minutes ago, webhead said:

And Flash and all the other kids he knows in the Far From Home trailer?

Snapped too, probs.

[Downshift 54]

4 hours ago, Deimos said:

They have introduced time travel for reals and they need to address it and get rid of it, it's going to be the next big problem. It has to be or things can't become streamline again. If they ignore it, it will lessen Endgame because of the glaring plot holes and out of character choices (cap doing nothing while hydra takes over shield). I think I might be really bummed out of they don't resolve the time travel stuff, fix it and vow never to use it again.

Agreed 1000%.

I really think time travel is just a plot narrative cop out for when you've written yourself into a corner. Thanos snapping away characters with confirmed solo movies coming up is an example of this and I would have preferred that they found a way to solve it without any time travel at all, but the "Time Heist" was still far better than going back and killing baby Thanos.

Maybe find some other cosmic power source in the universe with the ability to bring people back that wasn't based on the Infinity Stones.

[webhead 519]

The idea I had was going into the Soul Stone and pulling everyone out.  Maybe with the help of Adam Warlock.  Honestly though this was great.  They just need to explain some of the questions at some point.  Like did they create a divergent timeline when they dusted Thanos and friends?  I would assume yes since they took something from the past and didn't put it back lol.  That seemed to be the rule.  Also you can't change your own past.  You just make another time line.  Which is why they couldn't kill baby Thanos in the first place.

 

Edit: Found this article on Polygon.  Takes you through all the time travel rules and stuff.

[webhead 519]

Also Cap wielding Mjolnir got thunderous applause at the theater.  I swear I nearly cried I was so happy.

[Mera'din 307]

Was looking at a similar article. So we're probably looking at (at least right now) 3 separate timelines like Matt was basically saying. I can buy the "Cap was the husband all along" thing. It's small potatoes compared to everything else.

 

And yeah, Spider-man showing back up and Cap with Mjolnir were definitely the biggest theater cheering moments. Captain Marvel showing up to destroy Thanos' ship and when she showed up to save Tony being a close second to those.

[webhead 519]

When all the women got together Jovanna went "OH YAY!!!" next to me.

[Downshift 54]

33 minutes ago, webhead said:

When all the women got together Jovanna went "OH YAY!!!" next to me.

Sistershift saw that and was like, "Pandering? Really? She just flew through a spaceship, she doesn't need help."

[Mera'din 307]

Yeah my friend said something like that. Was just like "Uhm... just fucking flying through them." My wife really enjoyed that part though. I did too if I'm being honest. Pandering or not.  

[MT 917]

It was awesome, not gonna lie in the slightest. Kinda wish we'd seen more of Pepper in the Rescue armor, and more of Captain Marvel in general. 

[Mera'din 307]

Think it would have been cool if they could have snuck some new people in there too here and there especially since they've left potential for that already. We have a 5 year gap where things were bound to have happened, but I supposed they wanted this to be a solid 'wrap' on what there was so far without any lead ins for new stuff (thus not going with a stinger in the credits or anything). 

[webhead 519]

I'm happy though that Captain Marvel was there but that she wasn't there to be a big huge fucking MacGuffin because that would have felt extremely cheap.

 

Seeing her just slam through that ship like nothing was fucking awesome though.   The way they used her really made sense.  Like hey you dumb fucks, you aren't the only planet in the universe and Earth already has the fucking Avengers.

[Ulyster 35]

9 hours ago, Downshift said:

That Cap ending didn't make sense to me at all. Did he just go against his nature and sit by during all the events since WWII that he knew would happen? Did he leave Bucky in Hydra custody for those 70 years and let him be tortured and kill the Starks?

I mean, he had to have, because he remained in that same timeline since he appeared back in it on that bench, so nothing he did caused a butterfly effect apparently.

Also, I thought Sharon was Peggy's niece.

It depends how they want to go about it, really. If they want to say that Cap did just wait to grow old in the 'main' timeline, and then take a walk over to the bench on the right day, then it does kinda of imply that he sat by and did nothing while all of this unfolded around him.

 

But if they want to say Cap came BACK to the main timeline a few days prior to handing the shield over to Sam, then they can easily say that in his new timeline, he helped to prevent all this stuff (which might be where he got that new shield in the first place, seeing as his original one was destroyed by Thanos).

[MT 917]

Man, they got just about everyone back for this (none of the Ravagers played by Stallone, Michelle Yeoh, etc. though)

 

[Eizan 126]

On 4/27/2019 at 9:44 AM, MT said:

Cap did go and put Mjolnir back right after it was taken, same as with the Infinity Stones, so that's not really a big deal.

 

Yea about that, I'm pretty sure Banner was told that the Stones would have to be placed back in the moment they were taken.

 

So do they just like instantly go back to their original place once Cap hits that place in time or does he you know have to like say inject the Aether(Reality Stone) back into Jane, ect...?

[Mera'din 307]

Think it's safe to say that Jane ended up having an even worse day than we originally thought  during Dark World.  

[MT 917]

8 minutes ago, Eizan said:

 

Yea about that, I'm pretty sure Banner was told that the Stones would have to be placed back in the moment they were taken.

Yeah, but he definitely took Mjolnir with him when he went back in time at the end, I highly doubt he kept it.

[Eizan 126]

Oh I get that he probably place Mjolnir back.  

 

Just him playing the stones back so easily...

[webhead 519]

Easily?  Not necessarily so.  They just don't show us because the movie was already 3 hours long and we knew how that was going to go anyway.

[Downshift 54]

Not exactly clear on how you give the Soul Stone back... 

[MT 917]

Catch Black Widow just before she hits the ground?

[Anelle 792]

I would imagine you just go and yeet it over the edge and just consider it done

[Mera'din 307]

We need a short of Steve putting them all back imo. XD

 

I miss them doing those. Even the ridiculous Thor ones.

[Downshift 54]

What was Tony talking about when he was yelling "I told you so" to Cap after Danvers brought him and Nebula back?

 

Quote

 Steve Rogers : We've been hunting Thanos for three weeks now - through face scans and satellites, so far we've got nothing. Tony, you fought him...

Tony Stark : What are you talking about? I didn't fight him. No, he wiped my face with a planet while the wizard gave away the store. That's what happened, there's no fight...

Steve Rogers : Okay, did he give you any clues, any coordinates?

Tony Stark : I saw this coming a few years back, I had a vision, but I didn't want to believe it. Now it's true.

Steve Rogers : Tony, I'm going to need you to focus...

Tony Stark : I *needed* you, as in past tense. That trumps what you need. It's too late, buddy. Sorry. You know what I need? You know what I need? I need a shave. I don't believe I ever remember telling you this...

James Rhodes : Tony, Tony...

Tony Stark : What we needed was a suit of armor around the world! Remember that? Whether it impacted our precious freedoms or not, that's what we needed!

Steve Rogers : Well, that didn't work out, did it?

Tony Stark : I said we'd lose. You said, "we'll do that together too." Guess what, Cap? We *lost,* and you weren't there. But that's what we do, right? Our best work after the fact? We're the *Avengers?* Not the Prevengers, right?

James Rhodes : Okay, you made your point, Just sit down, okay?

Tony Stark : No, no, here's my biggest point, he said...

James Rhodes : Just sit down, okay? We need you, you're new blood.

Tony Stark : Bunch of tired old wheels! I got nothin' for you, Cap! I've got no coordinates, no clues, no strategies, no options! Zero, zip, nada. No trust - liar.

[rips off his reacter]

Tony Stark : Here, take this. You'll find him, if you put that on. You hide

IMDB

 

 

He's clearly talking about the Registration Act conflict from Civil War, but what I don't get is why he's saying Cap either lied or wasn't there. He was literally right there when Thanos walked out of that portal into Wakanda and did all he could to stand between him and Vision.

When Banner suggested Tony call Steve just before Ebony Maw and Black Dwarf invaded New York, Stark was the one that hesitated saying "We're not speaking." He never actually called him. What did Cap lie about?

 

[webhead 519]

YES!  I was just thinking about this a little bit ago.  I don't understand this exchange.  It doesn't make sense in the context of what actually happened. I'm confused by this.  I understand that he's mad at Cap in general and was lashing out but this doesn't quite make sense to me.

[Mera'din 307]

He's still pretty messed up at that point and it seems like he's basically hitting on multiple things as he rants (most of which are actually his own failings).

His vision being what Wanda made him see in Age of Ultron that fed off of his anxiety over the events of the first Avengers movie.

The "suit of armor around the world" is what Ultron was meant to be. Didn't Cap express some sort of disapproval for the Iron Legion (or at least his ultimate vision for it before he and Banner secretly set up Ultron) before shit went south in AoU as well? I can't remember and it's been a while since I watched it.

When he talks about losing and Cap not being there it's kind of a double thing. The "We'll lose together thing" was something he said to Tony in AoU about dealing with alien threats and Tony thinking it was something they couldn't win without something like Ultron to aid them. The reference to him not being there and thus them not losing "together" is because he wasn't around to help in Infinity War (at least not directly with what Tony was doing) because of what happened in Civil War. Once again, this is technically Tony's fault as well, but the implication is that if they had all been together when the attack happened then they could have won (or at least lost TOGETHER as it were).

 

Mostly I think it was intentional that he wasn't actually making a lot of sense. He was just shy of dead and was doing a Tony Stark version of ranting incoherently.

[webhead 519]

1 hour ago, Mera'din said:

He's still pretty messed up at that point and it seems like he's basically hitting on multiple things as he rants (most of which are actually his own failings).

His vision being what Wanda made him see in Age of Ultron that fed off of his anxiety over the events of the first Avengers movie.

The "suit of armor around the world" is what Ultron was meant to be. Didn't Cap express some sort of disapproval for the Iron Legion (or at least his ultimate vision for it before he and Banner secretly set up Ultron) before shit went south in AoU as well? I can't remember and it's been a while since I watched it.

When he talks about losing and Cap not being there it's kind of a double thing. The "We'll lose together thing" was something he said to Tony in AoU about dealing with alien threats and Tony thinking it was something they couldn't win without something like Ultron to aid them. The reference to him not being there and thus them not losing "together" is because he wasn't around to help in Infinity War (at least not directly with what Tony was doing) because of what happened in Civil War. Once again, this is technically Tony's fault as well, but the implication is that if they had all been together when the attack happened then they could have won (or at least lost TOGETHER as it were).

 

Mostly I think it was intentional that he wasn't actually making a lot of sense. He was just shy of dead and was doing a Tony Stark version of ranting incoherently.

 

I guess it's more that he was ranting incoherently because Cap "not being around" isn't a thing.  Bruce called him and they did shit in Wakanda.

 

As far as the "armor around the world" thing, that would have made literally zero difference because Thanos would have blasted right through it with no effort whatsoever.  I still don't understand exactly what Tony thinks he could have possibly done to stop any of this.  There's nothing he could have ever done except get the stones himself and make a gauntlet...which is what it took to stop Thanos.

[Anelle 792]

[MT 917]

2 hours ago, webhead said:

I guess it's more that he was ranting incoherently because Cap "not being around" isn't a thing.  Bruce called him and they did shit in Wakanda.

Does Tony know any of that, though? He was off in Black Maw's ship and on Titan for most of Infinity War.

 

Side note...Skrulls?