Avengers: Endgame [SPOILERS]

[webhead 519]

32 minutes ago, MT said:

Side note...Skrulls?

 

God damn.

 

Spoiler

Big if true

 

No but seriously that would be really awesome but also it would kind of suck if they played their hand that obviously.

 

Would be cool if the next Avengers is actually a Secret Invasion movie.

[MT 917]

Q&A with the Russos

 

Clears up a few things.

[Mera'din 307]

So 4 distinct timelines then and Cap did make another by staying in the past.

 

Also, something else this made me think of when it was talking about the quantum realm stuff and Scott. Janet was stuck in the Quantum Realm for about 30 years, which based on Scott's time there should have only been a little over a day for her. I looked a little bit and basically the only reasoning I could find was pretty much just "Because sci-fi is weird and we wanted her the right age for when she reunited with her family." I suppose different points in the quantum realm could have different effects, but still. >_>

[Anelle 792]

A completely nonsensical review of Endgame from someone who's never seen a Marvel movie

 

please for the love of god everyone read this

[Deimos 100]

5 hours ago, Mera'din said:

So 4 distinct timelines then and Cap did make another by staying in the past.

 

Also, something else this made me think of when it was talking about the quantum realm stuff and Scott. Janet was stuck in the Quantum Realm for about 30 years, which based on Scott's time there should have only been a little over a day for her. I looked a little bit and basically the only reasoning I could find was pretty much just "Because sci-fi is weird and we wanted her the right age for when she reunited with her family." I suppose different points in the quantum realm could have different effects, but still. >_>

 

 

Remember when they pulled Scott out young and old before they could navigate the Quantum Realm?

 

I think it has to do with that. They found her at that age in the Quantum Realm. It was possible to find her younger but they didn't know how to do that yet. 

 

That's my guess.

[webhead 519]

Guess they explained the Spidey angle too.  It was as simple as we thought.

 

Quote

Q: What about those people who got dusted? What did those five years mean to them? Why didn't they grow older when undusted?

A: Yes, those people whom was lucky to survive the snap are 5 years older than the people who just got back. The reason Spider Man saw his friend again in high school at the end was simply because his friends was unfortunately also dusted like Spider Man was. Of course, there are people in his grade whom didn't die and they are probably already in colleges by now. To those dusted people, they had no conscious in these past 5 years. They didn't know what happened. It's as if they had just woke up from a long sleep. The only one who was aware about how many years has passed was Doctor Strange, because he has already seen that when he was time mediating on Titan. Parker's reunion with Ned was a touching moment. There are also people whom indeed moved on but suddenly was reunited with their lost ones. Yeah it's kind a complicated world now.

 

Also kinda feels like the lucky ones were the ones that were snapped at this point.  They didn't have to live through hell.

[Downshift 54]

15 minutes ago, webhead said:

Also kinda feels like the lucky ones were the ones that were snapped at this point.  They didn't have to live through hell.

Yeah I think that's going to cause a huge social divide in future movies and shows that have to deal with that.

Plus it won't be all rainbows and unicorns for the Returned either. Imagine coming back home only to find another man has been raising your kids and banging your wife for 4 years...

[webhead 519]

57 minutes ago, Downshift said:

Yeah I think that's going to cause a huge social divide in future movies and shows that have to deal with that.

Plus it won't be all rainbows and unicorns for the Returned either. Imagine coming back home only to find another man has been raising your kids and banging your wife for 4 years...

 

There are definitely a lot of possibilities for the people coming back for sure.  Even like...Scott coming back and his kid is now a teenager.  How soul crushing would it be to miss 5 years of your kid's life?  I would be really sad at that.

[Mera'din 307]

10 hours ago, Deimos said:

Remember when they pulled Scott out young and old before they could navigate the Quantum Realm?

 

I think it has to do with that. They found her at that age in the Quantum Realm. It was possible to find her younger but they didn't know how to do that yet. 

 

That's my guess.

 

I can work with that.

[Downshift 54]

Also... what the hell was up with Thanos' double sword?

It's stronger than vibranium as it whittled away Cap's shield and was also able to simultaneously hold off both Stormbreaker and Mjolnir... but was easily shattered by a smirking Scarlet Witch.

 

Was that some epic god weapon from the comics?

[Mera'din 307]

I don't recall it being a thing in the comics. But Vibranium is likely only overly significant on Earth. It came from space and there are likely more interesting materials (such as Uru which Mjolnir and Stormbreaker are made from) to work with out in the Universe. They could really go anywhere as far as the movie universe is concerned.

 

His shield is kind of a weird thing in the comics where Cap's shield is more unique than it is in the movies. It was originally made from Vibranium mixed with an unknown alloy and the guy who made it doesn't even know how it happened so it's one of a kind. When it broke at one point (from some planet shattering level occurrence or another) it was then reinforced with Uru.

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be anything ultra impressive. The power of the user is going to matter to. Even in the comics, adamantium (which is indestructible) has been dented by the Hulk and by Thor w/ Mjolnir. We know it's stronger than vibranium, and at least the equivilent of Uru (but probably not Uru itself since we've seen Mjolnir used against the shield before). Likely the display was meant to show the full extent of Thanos' strength and, in turn, Wanda's. I was really happy when they showed that personally because it feels like they've been limiting showing what she is actually capable of in the movies so far before this and Infinity War.

 

Actually, now that I think about it, it COULD just be made of Vibranium honestly. Black Panther was able to scratch the shield with his claws which are also vibranium so it could be as simple as that plus his strength?  

[Downshift 54]

The only thing I could be sure of was that it was at least as strong as vibranium. Anything weaker (softer) would be dented, bent and mangled as Thanos bashed it against the Shield.

I thought it was a cool weapon though, and I liked Thanos a lot more in this move with his full armor and weapon.

 

I also definitely liked that Wanda finally got to let loose with her full power against Thanos. She clearly did the most damage to him out of anyone. However, that just made me remember that Vision is never coming back...  ?

[Mera'din 307]

Paul Bettany is supposed to be in the Scarlet Witch show they're doing (I guess the title for it is apparently "WandaVision" now?) So apparently he is. I'm guessing either Shuri was able close enough to separating him from the stone that she can rebuild him or Wanda starts doing some reality hopping of her own.

[Tassifox 418]

Finally got to see it last night and by the time I got home the adrenaline rush and puddle of emotions that I was made me pass out in bed.

Just.....holy. Fucking. Shit.

[Downshift 54]

20 hours ago, Mera'din said:

Paul Bettany is supposed to be in the Scarlet Witch show they're doing (I guess the title for it is apparently "WandaVision" now?) So apparently he is. I'm guessing either Shuri was able close enough to separating him from the stone that she can rebuild him or Wanda starts doing some reality hopping of her own.

I really hope it's the former and Shuri is able to pull off some vibranium tech-magic, with a little help from Wanda's mind- manipulation abilities to bring some version of him back.

I'm trying to remember back to Age of Ultron. They fused Jarvis with... what exactly? Was it actually the Mind Stone directly, or just its framework?

[Mera'din 307]

I can't remember the specifics. I know he claimed to be part Ultron and part JARVIS, but without whatever corruption Ultron had that turned him against humanity. The mind stone was important in his inception, and he was tied to it, but it must not have been intrinsically necessary for him to continue to function if Shuri was sure she could remove it safely. 

 

If they go that direction, I assume it will be revealed that she was nearly done and had mapped his neruon pathways/circuitry/whatever and will be able to ultimately reconstruct him. Possibly with some or complete memory loss, but the core "being" still there so he'll just have to relearn what he needs to which is a task that I'm sure Wanda would be willing to take on and could be a big plot point of the show maybe? There's a number of ways they could work it out. He's been destroyed multiple times in the comics so it's definitely not unheard of to bring him back.

[MT 917]

I thought she was just trying to find a way to replicate how the Mind stone interacted with Vision's core without using the actual stone.

[webhead 519]

No there was a physical remapping of all the pathways in his electronic brain or whatever (to yes, not use the stone).  The amount of time it took was the time it took to physically fix all that shit.

[Mera'din 307]

Yeah, she said it was like 2 trillion neurons that had to be remapped or something like that. Kind of curious how far through she actually got.

[MT 917]

Turns out Thanos didn't actually fully destroy the Infinity stones, he just destroyed their physical forms.

[Anelle 792]

cool so now Vision can just poof back into being because THE ENERGY IS LOOSE but this time he is a cat girl

[Downshift 54]

This reminded me that they had Thor all set up to be a badass in Engame after the events of Ragnarok and then forging Stormbreaker.

 

...but no.

 

 

[MT 917]

He goes over it in the video but I don't think Thor's sadness at failing so many times really hit this guy as much as it should have. He failed to protect Asgard from Hela/Surtur, the people he DID save died with Thanos in the beginning of Infinity War, and then he failed YET AGAIN to kill Thanos and bring his people back. Pretty much everything that happened to Thor since The Dark World has been him failing in one way or another. He was sullen in the beginning of Endgame, and when he finally was able to kill Thanos, it just wasn't worth it, at least not enough to bring his confidence back. He'd been dealing with that pain for so long, when Thanos was gone and there weren't any more major battles to fight, he did what most people probably would in that situation and let himself go. I think it's pretty well done, myself. Sure it would've been nice to see Thor be a bad ass again, but I think it makes total sense for him to be acting the way he was.

[webhead 519]

I think the real redemption starts now.  He went through a ton of shit and realized some things about himself by the end.  His talk with his mother was a big deal for him and it definitely wasn't lame.

 

What's been happening like MT said was they completely broke him down.  It seemed like he was getting his mojo back after Ragnarok but there was still more shit ahead.  They powered him up in that movie but didn't fix him like as a person.

[Tassifox 418]

Not to mentioned that having all this hits on him one after another after another in the span of what? 2 years without any real time to process this? Emotionally especially. Anyone he would have tried to get emotional support from were all pretty much dead or probably didn't feel like he could reach out to. Dude I can't think of ANYONE that was growing up to believe that he was practically invincible, the son of a mighty ruler like his dad. Be constantly looked up to and relied on and all the stuff he was filled to believe in of who he identified himself as. To be torn down like that at pretty much every angle and NOT come out scarred like that and just say "fuck it". Like MT said I totally find this believable.

[Downshift 54]

1 hour ago, MT said:

He goes over it in the video but I don't think Thor's sadness at failing so many times really hit this guy as much as it should have. He failed to protect Asgard from Hela/Surtur, the people he DID save died with Thanos in the beginning of Infinity War, and then he failed YET AGAIN to kill Thanos and bring his people back. Pretty much everything that happened to Thor since The Dark World has been him failing in one way or another. He was sullen in the beginning of Endgame, and when he finally was able to kill Thanos, it just wasn't worth it, at least not enough to bring his confidence back. He'd been dealing with that pain for so long, when Thanos was gone and there weren't any more major battles to fight, he did what most people probably would in that situation and let himself go. I think it's pretty well done, myself. Sure it would've been nice to see Thor be a bad ass again, but I think it makes total sense for him to be acting the way he was.

Here's the thing with all that.

This was the character arc in The Dark World; seemingly losing both his mother and brother (and Jane).

It was the character arc in Ragnarok; losing his father, his Hammer, his eye, the warriors three, and his entire army to Hela and his entire homeworld to Ragnarok.

It was the character arc in Infinity War, losing half his ship and half his people to Thanos, losing Loki for real this time, losing Heimdall, the first battle with Thanos, all the Dwarves at Nidavellir, then the second fight against Thanos, allowing the Snap.

 

That's THREE movies where his entire character arc is loss, death and failed redemption. For every step the character takes forward, Marvel knocks him two steps back. They legit showed him solemn and crying in Infinity War, lamenting over everything he'd lost, and that still wasn't enough?

 

Also, for as much as Thor lost, I'd argue that Steve Rogers lost even more. He legit lost his entire world and every single person he ever knew other than Bucky. But Cap is Marvel's perfect boyscout Gary Stu. So even after he tells Nat before facing Thanos on his Garden planet, "I know this is going to work. Because I don't know what I'm gonna do if it doesn't."... five years after it doesn't work he's still just being Cap, functionally unfazed, staying clean shaven, hosting support groups with Joe Russo and giving everyone positive pep talks. It's the most scripted, unrealistic character development ever.

With Thor, they went too far in the opposite direction. It might have been fine if at least some of the other Avengers reacted even slightly in the same way, but the only one you could say did was Clint, but even he turned into a badass (Ronin?) rather than just letting himself waste away alone in that remote farmhouse. Why was that? Clint lost his actual begotten immediate family all at once. Why didn't he turn to drinking and Fortnite when Thor did? Because it's not a guaranteed reaction for everyone. It's just one of many and was pretty out of character.

Tony felt just as much guilt but was able to mentally rebound, break off, isolate and raise a family like Clint had. Nat was shaken and sad, but still functional as she took over The Avengers. Rocket, Nebula and Rhodes went off to do missions abroad and in space. Okoye definitely wasn't a dysfunctional mess. Even Banner productively dealt with his "double loss" as he called it, that he said was worse for him by merging his mind with the Hulk's physique.

Other than Cap (he sucks, come at me wab), those were all interesting ways you'd expect to see Heroes deal with this type of loss and defeat. Out of all the Avengers, Thor is one of the last ones that should react that way. Tony's supposed to be the one with the drinking problem, and Banner already tried to kill himself when he got low. I wouldn't have been shocked if Cap did that instead, finally breaking after putting up that optimistic facade for so long.

 

The other thing is that these plot arcs are meant to lead to a character growth climax. You see Cap wield Mjolnir, proving he's finally somehow become even more perfect and worthy of an actual God's divine weapon. Banner redeems his loss and validates his usefulness to the team by using the stones to undo the Snap. Tony makes the actual ultimate sacrifice to kill the Big Bad once and for all, coming full circle from the selfish, narcissistic playboy we wet in 2008, and even from earlier in Endgame when he tells Cap he's not going to sacrifice what he's gained to get back what they lost.

Thor was on track for something similar. They showed him at his lowest in New Asgard, but then he get another pep talk from Rocket as he's having his drunken panic attack, and then the big one when he finally gets a reunion with his dead mom and talks to her for long enough to tell her the entire Thanos story. Then he gets Mjolnir back and discovers he's still worthy (you need a bigger confidence booster than that?). Then he gets his rematch against Thanos, with both his weapons (one of which over powered the Infinity Gauntlet with all 6 stones)... and gets pounded into four different rocks, knocks out Iron Man, and watches Cap wield his hammer better than he could. Then he decides that he's not a leader (after all the lectures he gave Loki) and fully abandons the people he was supposedly so broken up about losing to Thanos. All the pep talks and events that happened to Thor in Endgame amounted to nothing. That's the definition of anti-climactic.

 

Maybe his story isn't over and he'll somehow fit in with the Guardians even though he's supposed to be like 10x stronger than them, but having three movies in a row where he just loses and gets broken down was just a slap in the face to Thor fans.

 

Although I do get it if you don't think so due to not being a Thor fan. I don't like Hulk and don't really get why so many people hated his story in Endgame.

 

 

[MT 917]

You don't know how much success/failure Thor's had over the years before he was introduced to us in his own movie. Perhaps these failures he's been having were some of the first he's EVER had. Not only that, they came one right after the other, pretty much. Yeah, maybe he should've been able to get over it sooner than he did. But maybe the end of Endgame is what finally sets him back on the right path? It's fair to say he hasn't grown the way he probably should have, but after Endgame things are finally starting to look up. He was able to once and for all help get rid of the last main issue in his recovery (Thanos), and maybe finally start that redemption arc.

[webhead 519]

They are the first he's had.  That is why he was such a shithead when he starts in the first movie.  He'd never known loss or anything and wanted to start wars all over the place.

 

I can kind of agree that they went a little too far but it still made sense.  Everyone dealt with shit in their own way.

[Downshift 54]

My point is, the movie and Thor's own plot would have been better and more believable had they chosen to develop his character in Infinity War or even Ragnarok, rather than drag it out through Endgame.
Hell, even if he didn't come around until the end of Endgame when they were making the glove to undo the Snap, but he was still an immature drunk idiot even then.

 

This isn't real life, these aren't real emotions in response to pain and loss. It's fiction and the screenwriters chose to make him and only him react this way out of literally all the other characters and I'm saying it was a bad choice. Have none of them spiral out, or have more of them do it. Despite Clint going on 5 year killing spree to cope with his grief, he goes back to being a completely competent and useful Avenger again; successfully testing the quantum time GPS almost as soon as he gets back.

It actually doesn't make sense if you look at Thor in the MCU. We watched pretty much every movie he was in last week (even Dark World), and he's pretty much the same person underneath until Endgame when fat Thor comes out of left field as almost an entirely new character no one's ever seen before.

[MT 917]

Everyone deals with depression differently. Thor just took it much harder than everyone else did. I don't see that as a bad thing. Do you really think he'd just snap out of it (no pun intended) incredibly quickly and just be back to the old, enthusiastic Thor within days? Speaking as someone that definitely has suffered from severe depression, it takes time to get out of that hole. We don't see much of him post-killing 2012 Thanos, so that could have very well been the catalyst that brings him back to the Thor you want him to be. There's also just no way to know how he feels internally. It's easy to give a brave face on the outside and still be very depressed on the inside. I've been doing it for years, so I know.

 

7 hours ago, Downshift said:

My point is, the movie and Thor's own plot would have been better and more believable had they chosen to develop his character in Infinity War or even Ragnarok, rather than drag it out through Endgame.
Hell, even if he didn't come around until the end of Endgame when they were making the glove to undo the Snap, but he was still an immature drunk idiot even then.

You may be remembering Ragnarok wrong. In the beginning he's still the same Thor he always has been, talking shit and joking around with Surtur. He only really starts to get down after Mjolnir gets destroyed (as it's the one thing he's had with him through just about every battle he's ever fought), and he's not used to being without it. That's why it takes the pep talk from Odin about being "Thor, god of hammers" before he starts to realize he's more than just Mjolnir. He finally gets some semblance of his confidence back, and then immediately loses Asgard and most of it's people. That is relatively quickly followed up by Thanos appearing and killing the rest of the Asgardians, as well as his brother in the beginning of Endgame. That's his third major loss in about a year (I don't know the time frame between the end of Ragnarok, pre post-credits scene and the beginning of Infinity War).

 

He seems to get some confidence back when they travel to Nidavellir and he builds Stormbreaker, but then is thrown another big defeat when he fails to kill Thanos by not going for the head. Less than a month later, he fails YET AGAIN to bring back anyone Thanos killed with the snap. This all takes place within the span of maybe three years? All of that shit going bad quickly after most likely hundreds of years of victories is definitely gonna affect someone pretty harshly.

[webhead 519]

I think they were foreshadowing fairly big when he first meets the Guardians in Infinity War and is basically like yeah my whole life is fucked right now.  He got confidence in his POWERS back and he lead his people because they needed a leader but I still think that while I would have preferred this not be the way things went, it actually does make a lot of sense.

 

So like I agree with you in a sense that they did him dirty, but it also makes complete sense.  He has the room to grow now that Thanos is thoroughly defeated and he's off to figure out who he really is.  I think the talk with his mother was quite poignant in that she was like "you gotta be yourself and not who you're supposed to be because you'll always fail at that."  It kind of drove the point home.  Since the first Thor movie he has always tried to live up to who his father expected him to be and he has failed at it many many times.

[Mera'din 307]

He was definitely still hung up on the hammer too. Not the hammer in the physical sense, but it was clear after everything he's lost since he lost the hammer, that internally he felt himself less and less "worthy". Calling the hammer and having it come to him after everything he had been through and how he felt about it was a pretty big deal for him I think. Between that and the talk with his mother I think that's the first REAL healing we've seen for his character in a long time. 

 

Thor writing has always been a little clumsy, so I get where people are coming from, but none of it honestly bothered me. His arc in Endgame is probably one of the ones I enjoyed the most. They all were dealing with what happened in different ways. His was just the most physically noticeable. Steve and Natasha both poured themselves into some kind of work to avoid dealing with it as much as possible, Clint going off the deep end Ultimate Hawkeye style, etc.

[Downshift 54]

8 hours ago, MT said:

He finally gets some semblance of his confidence back, and then immediately loses Asgard and most of it's people. That is relatively quickly followed up by Thanos appearing and killing the rest of the Asgardians, as well as his brother in the beginning of Endgame.

So I've been wondering... how much of Asgard was actually wiped out? It seems like genocide at this point, more so than other races Thanos decimated.

First the Dark Elves invade and make quick work of the palace guards. Then Hela shows up and literally kills ever last soldier (the distress signal the Guardians pick up in Infinity War says they are mostly families, no soldiers). Then Thanos does his thing and manually slaughters half of who's left on the ship that escaped Ragnarok.

THEN the Snap happens, and unless Thanos remembered not to kill half of the half he spared, he dusted half of those survivors.

At the end of Ragnarok they say Asgard isn't a place it's a People, but there seemed to only be hundreds left in New Asgard. But seems like at least 10% got wiped out by the Elves and Hela, 50% of that got slaughtered by Thanos and his crew, and 50% of those got dusted in the Snap. So it seems like less than 25% of their population is left.

Man, Marvel really hates Asgard don't they?

 

As far as Thor's arc, I talked to a Captain America fan about it today and basically asked them if they'd be OK if the character reactions were swapped. Thor was the one who actually took his quest with Rocket and Groot to forge Stormbreaker to heart, was extra motivated by the loss to Thanos to better himself so he could actually lead New Asgard when they needed him most and actually landed a few blows on Thanos in the final battle. ...If Cap was the one who let himself go, stopped grooming and going out in public, developed a drinking or gambling problem, was either passed out or incoherently rambling during the Avengers plan meetings, was of no use in his Quantum Time Heist mission, and then was out of shape and useless in the final battle. Even after receiving multiple pep talks from Natasha, Banner and Stark only to have none of it take before the credits rolled.

They said no, it would be out of character for him. He's Steve Rogers. "Just because", etc.

I honestly don't see the difference in why Cap is immune to this type of breakdown when Thor isn't. Thor's had to earn his stripes multiple times over thus far in the MCU but seems to be the only one who's still back at square one. Maybe they did this so he could start the next MCU Phase as part of the Asguardians of the Galaxy back at square one... but it doesn't change the fact that he's back at square one after 10+ years.

 

2 hours ago, Mera'din said:

He was definitely still hung up on the hammer too. Not the hammer in the physical sense, but it was clear after everything he's lost since he lost the hammer, that internally he felt himself less and less "worthy". Calling the hammer and having it come to him after everything he had been through and how he felt about it was a pretty big deal for him I think. Between that and the talk with his mother I think that's the first REAL healing we've seen for his character in a long time.

This might be what bothers me most.

+pep talk from Banner

+pep talk from Rocket

+pep talk from Mom

+"still worthy" of Mjolnir

= nothing

 

Plus, even if they do plan on waiting to expanding on these until Guardians vol 3, we have to wait until when, 2022?

 

---

 

Enough about Thor though, y'all just haters.

 

We know how Iron Man and Captain America's stories end, but what do you think will happen with Banner? I imagine he's going to stay as Professor Hulk, but I'm thinking if that arm never heals they might use that as an excuse to have him retire and only be used as a consultant on gamma radiation stuff. Betty Ross hasn't been seen in a decade, his most recent love interest in Black Widow is gone, Thor left him behind, and his research buddy in Stark is also gone. Otherwise he's probably the strongest Earth-based Avenger left. The MCU has never seemed to know what to do with Hulk, so idk...

[webhead 519]

7 minutes ago, Downshift said:

As far as Thor's arc, I talked to a Captain America fan about it today and basically asked them if they'd be OK if the character reactions were swapped. Thor was the one who actually took his quest with Rocket and Groot to forge Stormbreaker to heart, was extra motivated by the loss to Thanos to better himself so he could actually lead New Asgard when they needed him most and actually landed a few blows on Thanos in the final battle. ...If Cap was the one who let himself go, stopped grooming and going out in public, developed a drinking or gambling problem, was either passed out or incoherently rambling during the Avengers plan meetings, was of no use in his Quantum Time Heist mission, and then was out of shape and useless in the final battle. Even after receiving multiple pep talks from Natasha, Banner and Stark only to have none of it take before the credits rolled.

They said no, it would be out of character for him. He's Steve Rogers. "Just because", etc.

I honestly don't see the difference in why Cap is immune to this type of breakdown when Thor isn't. Thor's had to earn his stripes multiple times over thus far in the MCU but seems to be the only one who's still back at square one. Maybe they did this so he could start the next MCU Phase as part of the Asguardians of the Galaxy back at square one... but it doesn't change the fact that he's back at square one after 10+ years.

 

If you think this could easily be swapped for Cap then you have a complete lack of understanding of Steve Rogers's character completely.  The one thing about him above all else is that he never ever gives up ever.  That's not part of Thor.  Thor was basically a spoiled rich kid until the first Thor movie and even then, he just had a little humility beat into him.  All this loss and death is shaping him into being a much better person overall even if he took a pit stop into pityville.  I think MOST people would actually end up just like Thor if they'd gone through what he did.  It's awful.  Like you said, like 75% of Asgard has been killed.   Of course that was always going to happen because of the actual Ragnarok event (the legend itself).

 

I am absolutely not a hater of Thor.  Thor is one of my favorite MCU characters.  I didn't LOVE that he completely gave up but I'm saying it made sense in the context of everything that happened.  I mean shit, that would be me.  I'm almost certain that would be me if I lost my entire family.

11 minutes ago, Downshift said:

 

We know how Iron Man and Captain America's stories end, but what do you think will happen with Banner? I imagine he's going to stay as Professor Hulk, but I'm thinking if that arm never heals they might use that as an excuse to have him retire and only be used as a consultant on gamma radiation stuff. Betty Ross hasn't been seen in a decade, his most recent love interest in Black Widow is gone, Thor left him behind, and his research buddy in Stark is also gone. Otherwise he's probably the strongest Earth-based Avenger left. The MCU has never seemed to know what to do with Hulk, so idk...

 

i hope they heal his arm.  That's stupid.  Hulk is supposed to be basically invincible and heal from anything.  Like even more than Wolverine.  I don't want to see him gimped like that.  What makes Hulk particularly special is like he said in the very first Avengers movie.  He tried to shoot himself in the head and "the other guy spit it out."  You cannot kill or even maim the Hulk.  HULK IS STRONGEST THERE IS.

[MT 917]

15 minutes ago, Downshift said:

This might be what bothers me most.

+pep talk from Banner

+pep talk from Rocket

+pep talk from Mom

+"still worthy" of Mjolnir

= nothing

How is it nothing? All you saw of him once he was revealed to still be worthy of Mjolnir was the battle with Thanos and his forces at the end of Endgame. He looked to be in better spirits by that point to me. Even his stuff at the end with Quill on the Guardians' ship was more like the Thor of old, even if he was still scraggly and fat. Saying it's nothing just isn't based on much at this point.

[Downshift 54]

20 minutes ago, webhead said:

If you think this could easily be swapped for Cap then you have a complete lack of understanding of Steve Rogers's character completely.  The one thing about him above all else is that he never ever gives up ever.

This is the same excuse I heard at work. "Cap is just perfect, because reasons. Just because of because."

It's like he's made out of plot armor, all the way to his hollow core.

Fucking disgusting.

 

20 minutes ago, webhead said:

he just had a little humility beat into him. 

***

he took a pit stop into pityville.

Yeah... no.

I'd agree with this if I hadn't just illustrated that this has now been three straight movies with no progress... and counting.

Tony's loss to Cap in Civil War and to Thanos in Infinity War and then his little rant when he got back is a pitstop, or a "little humility". Thor was objectively less of a spoiled rich kid than Tony, not to point out the more obvious indicator here... why does Thor need to learn more humility than anyone else if he was the only one worthy Mjolnir?

 

20 minutes ago, webhead said:

I'm saying it made sense in the context of everything that happened.  I mean shit, that would be me.  I'm almost certain that would be me if I lost my entire family. 

You're not a Norse God of Thunder, bruh.

Then again... neither is Thor apparently.

 

14 minutes ago, MT said:

How is it nothing? All you saw of him once he was revealed to still be worthy of Mjolnir was the battle with Thanos and his forces at the end of Endgame. He looked to be in better spirits by that point to me. Even his stuff at the end with Quill on the Guardians' ship was more like the Thor of old, even if he was still scraggly and fat. Saying it's nothing just isn't based on much at this point.

He was literally whining, begging and crying to the team to let him put on the Gauntlet and reverse the Snap after he bot back with Mjolnir. The Thor of old would have just taken matters into his own hands like he did in Age of Ultron when he activated Vision no explanation and without even asking anyone.

[MT 917]

I may need to see it again because I don't remember any whining going on.

[Downshift 54]

2 minutes ago, MT said:

I may need to see it again because I don't remember any whining going on.

"Just please... please let me do something good... let me do something right...." 

 

I miss the Thor that gets a hunch on what a prophecy probably means and then, without asking or consulting anyone, orders his evil brother to literally end the world.

[MT 917]

Maybe Thanos reappearing and blowing up the Avengers facility was the catalyst he needed?

[Downshift 54]

 

He was still the least effective of the main four powered Avengers in the final act of the movie. We'll have to wait until Gunn is finished with Suicide Squad to find out if any of that took.

[Downshift 54]

 

3 hours ago, webhead said:

HULK IS STRONGEST THERE IS.

 

See, since I'm not as into the comics and never saw much Hulk in any animated shows, I never really got the vibe that Hulk is the strongest Avenger. He didn't seem much stronger than Thor in The Avengers, lost to Iron Man in Age of Ultron, lost to Thor in Ragnarok, then lost to Thanos in glorious fashion.

I was really hoping to see something at a little akin to World Breaker Hulk before this was over.

 

 

[webhead 519]

I think almost all the Avengers are powered down from their comic counterparts in some ways which is kind of annoying but Hulk is by far the most depowered.  Actually Thor is up there too.  When Odin dies and Thor gets the Odinforce his powers are fucking ridiculous.  They just kinda skipped over that.  Probably because they'd both kill all the dramatic tension.

 

Hulk had potentially unlimited strength as he gets angrier and angrier and his healing powers are pretty ridiculous.  Of course this kinda thing always depends on the writer.

 

Also I'm going to have to make you read the Brubaker run of Cap.  I barely gave 2 shits about the character until then.  That run is legendary (it's where the Winter Solider story comes from and it's a 2000s run).

[Mera'din 307]

Somewhere in the multiverse...

 

[Olly 39]

On 5/7/2019 at 6:27 PM, Downshift said:

I honestly don't see the difference in why Cap is immune to this type of breakdown when Thor isn't. 

[...]

 

+pep talk from Banner

+pep talk from Rocket

+pep talk from Mom

+"still worthy" of Mjolnir

= nothing

... you know that's pretty much a summary of exactly how a depressive brain works, right?

 

[webhead 519]

 

[Downshift 54]

3 hours ago, Olly said:

... you know that's pretty much a summary of exactly how a depressive brain works, right?

 

No, that's only the first few steps of the process. I would have expected to see the final parts of the process after three entire movies.

And that's from a normal, average, boring, relatable everyman, not the Norse God of Thunder.

[Downshift 54]

1 hour ago, webhead said:

 

This is from someone who by his own admission was never a Thor fan in the first place, and just liked that the character went though a ton of adversity to mix up his story line.

Conversely, I've never been a Cap fan would loved to have seen him go through all that adversity to add some actual depth and believable humanity to his character... who actually is human as opposed to a god.

[webhead 519]

Wait do you think because Thor is a "god" he's somehow not susceptible to emotions?  That's silly.  Hell he tells Loki "you think you're better than them don't you?" in the Avengers because Loki is a puffed up cocky dickhole.  Lol.

 

Anyway I thought he brought up some good points.

[Mera'din 307]

Clearly Steve Rogers doesn't suffer from depression? I don't really know what you're looking for here. The established him pretty early on as the kind of person who could have the whole world against him and he will never give up and never stop fighting. He'll always get back up and keep going no matter how bleak shit is and will help everyone he can along the way.  Even his contentions with Tony stem from that drive. He was not willing to compromise his beliefs for anything, and would rather die fighting for all that he is than sacrifice even one part of it. Some people just don't break. At least not outwardly or in any quantifiable way that matters for this discussion.

 

I don't know where the insistence on comparing Thor with him is coming from either. A better comparison for Thor would probably be Stark overall. Both in terms of their early lives, parts of their personalities and the kinds of shit they've had to deal with.

[Downshift 54]

1 hour ago, Mera'din said:

The established him pretty early on as the kind of person who could have the whole world against him and he will never give up and never stop fighting. He'll always get back up and keep going no matter how bleak shit is and will help everyone he can along the way.  Even his contentions with Tony stem from that drive. He was not willing to compromise his beliefs for anything, and would rather die fighting for all that he is than sacrifice even one part of it. Some people just don't break. At least not outwardly or in any quantifiable way that matters for this discussion.

I just hate everything about this. He's the most unrealistic, unrelatable Gary Stu character in all of the MCU. Even his story's ending in the MCU is an impossibly perfect storybook ending.

 

But you guys are convincing me even more that Thor >> Cap.

Maybe Thor finally comes around in his character arc in Guardians 3.0 or Thor 4 or something, but I still contend that it shouldn't have been dragged out for like 4-5 movies.