Avengers: Endgame [SPOILERS]

[webhead 519]

Cap is Marvel Superman.  A lot of people hate him because of that but all the things I love about Superman are the things I love about Captain America.  Also I think you'd really enjoy reading a good run on Cap.  As I said a few posts back, I never really cared for him much until a really good writer got a hold of him.  Kind of like Green Lantern.

[Tassifox 418]

[Galeigh 308]

Saw it today, cried in the theater during the funeral, cheered when cap took up Mjolnir. Wild ride, loved it all. 

 

My thoughts on the Thor arc:

 

He spent 3 movies losing, but only one actually coming to terms with the fact that you can fail and keep going. That was the whole point of his Endgame arc, he finally accepted that he has failed, and will probably fail again, but that doesn't mean it's the end. He NEVER failed until Dark World events. He never learned how to process failure. So Endgame was the single largest step for him as a character. 

 

As for the Cap comparisons. Just stop. Steve lived a life of constant failure, rejection, and loss before he was transformed. He learned how to deal with and process it all a long time before he even entered the super soldier program. So flipping hos arc with Thor would be a MASSIVE breach of character for him. There is a reason his favorite saying is "I can do this all day" 

 

As for the Hulk thing. Yeah, I wanted to see him go ham the whole time. The thing is, by basically merging himself with the Hulk Bruce cut his power significantly. Thats probably why his arm hasnt healed yet and why he didn't bring the usually oomph to the final fight. Without the savage rage the Hulk is just a big green guy who happens to be stronger than most people instead of a force of nature. I think this will be a big plot point in the future, and I really wanna see where it goes. 

[Downshift 54]

6 hours ago, Galeigh said:

As for the Cap comparisons. Just stop. Steve lived a life of constant failure, rejection, and loss before he was transformed. He learned how to deal with and process it all a long time before he even entered the super soldier program. So flipping hos arc with Thor would be a MASSIVE breach of character for him. There is a reason his favorite saying is "I can do this all day"

Just to be consistent, you're saying that Odin's enchantment on Mjolnir, "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor", was always meant to be completely arbitrary meaningless?

[webhead 519]

He was worthy by accepting some humility.  That's not the same as the other stuff he went through.  Also "being worthy" has always been kind of arbitrary and undefined so that's really hard to contend with.

[Downshift 54]

Just checking the consistency here.

 

Age of Ultron: Cap couldn't lift the Hammer (and was trying to rationalize it away with Stark at the end), while Thor and Vision could lift it.

You're dismissing that as meaning absolutely nothing since Cap was more worthy and perfect than everyone else in that room?

 

 

I still straight up reject the implication that Thor was such a huge steaming pile of shit of a character after Ultron/Civil War that he still needed to lose everything over the course of four entire movies to redeem himself.

 

This is why you're haters.

"He lost his mom, his brother, his girlfriend, his father, his sister, his best friends, his eye, his iconic weapon... his entire planet? .... "

".... Nah that fucking douche still hasn't learned his lesson! Kill off half of his entire race, then make him the main failure at ground zero of the universe's greatest tragedy and then watch him writhe around in guilt and emotional agony for a few more years. Then we'll see if Valkyrie and Korg need to die too..."

[Galeigh 308]

Thor doesn't and hasn't needed "redemption" he needed and got emotional growth. Yes, a whole bunch of shit has happened to him, but he has never really dealt with any of it until now. There was always a fight to go to, a world to save, or some other incident that kept him busy. Post snap was the first time he was forced to stop and reflect on everything, and having to deal with it all at once while not knowing HOW left him a broken man. That talk with his mom helped him organize it all to the point that he was able to realize he just isn't ready to lead his people until he is truly at peace with himself so he left someone he knows is capable in the spot while he does just that. He failed tp contribute to the final fight effectively because he spent 5 years on a couch wasted 24/7. No one is gonna be in top shape after that, asgardian or not and it showed. He was sloppy and uncoordinated like someone in his position should. 

 

His final scene with Quill showed a bit of the old him hinting that, while not 100%, he is getting back on his feet now. 

[webhead 519]

1 hour ago, Downshift said:

Just checking the consistency here.

 

Age of Ultron: Cap couldn't lift the Hammer (and was trying to rationalize it away with Stark at the end), while Thor and Vision could lift it.

You're dismissing that as meaning absolutely nothing since Cap was more worthy and perfect than everyone else in that room?

 

 

I still straight up reject the implication that Thor was such a huge steaming pile of shit of a character after Ultron/Civil War that he still needed to lose everything over the course of four entire movies to redeem himself.

 

This is why you're haters.

"He lost his mom, his brother, his girlfriend, his father, his sister, his best friends, his eye, his iconic weapon... his entire planet? .... "

".... Nah that fucking douche still hasn't learned his lesson! Kill off half of his entire race, then make him the main failure at ground zero of the universe's greatest tragedy and then watch him writhe around in guilt and emotional agony for a few more years. Then we'll see if Valkyrie and Korg need to die too..."

Who said he was terrible?

 

People said he's never dealt with loss and defeat, not that he was a douche bag.  He was a douche bag at the beginning of the first movie.  Other than that he was great.

 

I don't think he "found redemption" here and I don't think anyone said that?  He didn't do anything wrong.

 

Also I read that the writers said Cap could actually move the hammer and when he realized this, decided to not pick it up out of respect.

https://www.screengeek.net/2019/05/08/captain-america-thor-hammer/

[webhead 519]

As a note I never said I LOVED what they did with Thor.  I understand it but would have preferred it go another way.  The only salty ass hater is you and Cap.   I don't know why.  Probably too much of a goody goody for you I guess.  I always liked the characters that inspired hope and tried to make the people around them better (like Superman and Cap).

[Downshift 54]

Thor never dealt with loss or defeat? By what point? Before he lost his mother and brother in the same day? Before his girlfriend dumped him? Before his sister destroyed his hammer and then just effortlessly kicked his ass twice? (He never defeated Hela, BTW. He's still holding that L)

 

What you're talking about is Ragnarok. Before Ragnarok you could probably make the argument that he'd lived a perfect enchanted life thus far, free from all notions of loss and defeat. (if you pretend his mom's and Loki's deaths had no effect on him)

 

After Ragnarok though, what else did he still need to lose? What facet of his character was still lacking to the point of him still being in need of emotional growth through pain and loss? What argument for, "He hasn't experienced hardship yet" could be made after Asgard is destroyed in their literal end of the world?

This is what I don't get.

 

5 hours ago, Galeigh said:

His final scene with Quill showed a bit of the old him hinting that, while not 100%, he is getting back on his feet now. 

And this proves what exactly? That during the five years between when he first ran into the Quill and the Guardians, to after Endgame and all his "emotional growth", he's still exactly how he was then?

He's objectively being an ass to Quill, purposefully pushing his insecurity buttons and being generally disrespectful.

Guess Korg really is gonna have to die in Guardians 4 as Thor continues to flounder around getting his shit together.

 

5 hours ago, webhead said:

Also I read that the writers said Cap could actually move the hammer and when he realized this, decided to not pick it up out of respect.

https://www.screengeek.net/2019/05/08/captain-america-thor-hammer/

This is why I specifically mentioned Cap and Tony trying to rationalize why they couldn't lift the hammer at the end of Ultron.

You read a quote from Anthony Russo who was not a writer for Whedon's Age of Ultron and had nothing to do with that Mjolnir scene.

 

 

3 hours ago, webhead said:

The only salty ass hater is you and Cap.   I don't know why.  Probably too much of a goody goody for you I guess.  I always liked the characters that inspired hope and tried to make the people around them better (like Superman and Cap).

I've always hated Cap.

I just can't be inspired by an avatar that embodies impossibly perfect standards. You could argue that Cap lost more than everyone due to being plucked out of his time... but you'd never know it based on how he just put his head down and did what Fury told him right out of the ice. How is that an example to people going through something similar and looking for inspiration?

 

It's like asking someone for advice and hearing "Just make all the right choices and do everything perfectly."

It rings hollow when you can't relate. Then it gets nauseating after 5+ movies.

[Galeigh 308]

They repeatedly showed cap struggling to deal with his lost time: The book of movies/books and other things that were created during his time, his lack of ability to keep up with modern references, and his inability to move on from peggy. 

 

He isn't perfect in the movies and I would argue that even though he got the sterotypical happy ending by being with peggy that it was his own inability to feel at home in the modern era that cemented his decision to do so. 

 

Just cause someone remains functional and clear headed most of the time it doesn't mean they have it all handled. Cap was just more experienced in dealing with it than Thor. 

 

Speaking of, if I recall correctly, chronologically speaking, it was right after the dark world events that Thor began his universe wide mission to prevent ragnorak. He showed up for Ultron, but immediately went back to it until the events of Ragnorak that led straight into infinity war. Which means, if I am remembering it correctly, he had basically 0 down time, relatively speaking, from losing his mom, thinking he lost his brother, to reconnecting with his brother, losing his father, then most of his people, his world, to his brother actually dying, and failing to stop Thanos. 

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, but if I am not then explain to me where he the time to process anything when going from one catastrophe to another. The man has had it rough, no doubt, but he also wasn't given time to deal with it. Having one or 2 moments of crying and a few inspiring speeches don't magically fix grief and he has a fuck ton of grief. 

 

Oh and Thor was always kind of a dick, but never maliciously so. He has pushed everyone's buttons from time to time, he is a bit of a troll. 

[Mera'din 307]

There is not a lot of time between the end of Ragnarok and the start of Infinity War. Despite the gap between movies for us, the timeline seems pretty narrow for the character. It was basically a cascade of events hitting one after the other in rapid succession from Ragnarok through to the first part of Endgame and they all kind of tailed off of one another. They're all part and parcel to fueling his insecurities.

 

Also, Whedon implied the same thing that Russo said in like 2015. Someone asked him at Q&A thing about why Cap couldn't lift the hammer and his response was “Did he fail? Or did he stop?”

[Galeigh 308]

I am looking at the timeline for the movie and I was right. Dark world was right before winter soldier where explicitly stated he was busy saving other worlds after the fallout of dark world, he showed again during Ultron where he was just finishing up cleaning up that mess when he finds out about ragnorak and goes out to stop that, missing everything after until ragnorak where they show him finally finishing THAT up, and we know where it goes from there. 

[Downshift 54]

Consistency is going out the window again here.

 

Is Cap perfect in every possible way or not? KK's saying he's not, but that he has more life experience than a 1000+ year old Asgardian God of Thunder. Kyle's saying not only was he worthy and able to lift Mjolnir, he was also such a better person than Thor even then that he pretended to not be able to lift it just to save everyone else's feelings since he didn't want them to know just how inferior they were to him.

What a guy.

 

100% perfect AND 100% humble.

He's like Marvel Jesus! ?

 

Spoiler

 

 

38 minutes ago, Galeigh said:

I am looking at the timeline for the movie and I was right. Dark world was right before winter soldier where explicitly stated he was busy saving other worlds after the fallout of dark world, he showed again during Ultron where he was just finishing up cleaning up that mess when he finds out about ragnorak and goes out to stop that, missing everything after until ragnorak where they show him finally finishing THAT up, and we know where it goes from there. 

Unless you have a daily calendar showing he saved 600+ worlds over those 2 years or some shit, this is pointless. He clearly stated in Ragnarok that he took time to mourn Loki's death. You really think he lied about that? Or was only sad for 20 min and pretended to be over it? Or that he's so heartless that he forgot to also mourn for his mother? He was also doing most of this alone and therefore likely had more alone time than anyone other than Hulk during that period for reflection. I mean shit, you see him sitting by himself for how knows long long in a cage at the opening of Ragnarok, specifically reflecting on past events and how he ended up where he was. He was constantly processing everything.

Besides, that sounds an awful lot like how Black Widow dealt with her grief after Infinity War, as well as Rocket, Rhodes, Nebula and Okoye; all delving into their work and just keeping busy as much as possible.

Rocket especially mentions in Infinity War that he still has a lot to lose after talking to Thor... and then does proceed to lose it all after the Snap. Then he laments to Thor about how he lost the only family he ever had. Did you not believe him? Did you not really buy his grief? He didn't spend 5 years in a drunken stupor and become completely useless in the Time Heist mission did he?

Having someone spiral out as fantastically as Thor did is not required to sell that they're dealing with grief and loss.

 

What about Tony? He went up against Thanos and lost fantastically also. Had to watch Spider-Man disintegrate in his arms, which was his fault because he told Peter to follow the wizard (and gave him that suit). But after the battle he just passes off the blame to Cap saying it's all his fault for not listening to him before, then goes off, fathers Morgan with Pepper and lives guilt-free in the woods not planning on helping what's left of the world he couldn't save?

 

What you don't seem to realize is that this was a work of fiction. Just like with Rocket and Stark, the Russo's could have gone in any direction with Thor's arc once they were handed the end of Ragnarok and what did they do? Shit all over him. Nothing forced their hand, this was a creative choice.

 

 

So again,

1 hour ago, Downshift said:

After Ragnarok though, what else did he still need to lose? What facet of his character was still lacking to the point of him still being in need of emotional growth through pain and loss? What argument for, "He hasn't experienced hardship yet" could be made after Asgard is destroyed in their literal end of the world?

This is what I don't get.

 

I'm criticizing their creative choice and you're trying to argue back on the false premise that there was an objectively correct and incorrect way to depict Thor's reaction to adversity. As if it'd somehow be scientifically or psychologically inaccurate to have him react differently, even though it's been said multiple times already that everyone deals with grief differently because there's no right or wrong way to do that.

[Galeigh 308]

I am saying it's not as far fetched as you are claiming. The writers are still trying to fix the mostly bland as fuck character development from thor and dark world. Ragnorak did a lot, sure, but be honest here: Where do you go with a godlike powerhouse after all the major villains that could threaten him are gone? They chose the directionless broken man direction. Sure, you can criticize it, but they at least made it believable. No one lost more than Thor during the snap. Period. So yeah, he took it the hardest. For a guy who spent most of his 1000+ year life stuck in the spoiled prince bubble he had no experience with loss until recently. Yeah, I can say cap has more life experience. It's not about age but what you actually experience and Cap fought in one of the world's bloodiest wars and before that he was a bullied sickly kid whose family had already died. All he had was Bucky whom he "lost" during the war. He knew more than anyone else shown what its like to lose everything over night. So yeah, he dealt with it better than everyone else. 

[Downshift 54]

I will grant you that the way Thor dealt with his lashing from the Russo Bros was far more realistic than anything Cap did.

 

Even with all my gripes about Thor getting the short end of the plot stick, his arc still >>>>>>>> Cap's arc.

[MT 917]

Thor's fine, he said so himself.

[MT 917]